Thread:SouthWriter/@comment-31246436-20160908152409/@comment-1777104-20160909024053

I have been spending a few hours working on a response, but in re-reading this, I can see that you are not looking at verses "on predestination" but instead deny its possibility on a personal basis. It seems that you hold to a veiw that God depends on the actions of men and women to "seal the deal." You say as much as that when you state "If  God had predestined us, then those who are predestined to be damned don't have a fair shot at salvation."

The whole argument of the Book of Romans is that people know perfectly well that God is there, but they choose to reject him. And that means every single one! The point of God's love is that any of us are saved (Rom 5:8; 6:23). It is not love if God just offers everyone a gift and waits. '''While we were still sinners, Christ died for us!! '''That is personal. The church as a body is not a sinner, but a pure bride (Rev. 21:2), so it is not the predestinated group about which Paul writes in Romans 8:

''' 28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. '''

''' 29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. '''

''' 30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. '''

You are building an argument based on human reasoning rather than from the Word of God. When you read the Bible in context, then the logic of a sovereign God -- who both brings birth and new birth to whomever He choses (Rom 9:6-13) makes far more sense. It is, God the Father who choses us, and not the other way around. The verses above don't say that we earn God's favor, but that we are called to a purpose. And that calling comes after God has known us personally beforehand and decided that we are the ones that will be in His church. Only then did he call and justify us.

Those verses lead up to a beautiful promise that once we are in God's care, He will never let go of us! (Rom 8:31-31). Yes, God is the one who condemns and who saves. The truth is, it is by his mercy that any are saved. Praise His holy name that he has saved HIS people from THEIR sins (Matt 1:21). What the writer to the Hebrews is saying is concerning those who join the church but are not first saved. They taste the sweetness of the fellowship, and maybe even do all kinds of good works, but then turn away from God. Jesus speaks of these in the parable of the soils -- the seed that fall in the rocky ground see some growth, but wither and die; those in the weedy ground show growth but are"strangled" and do not produce fruit. There will even be those that do good works "in His name" but are sent away into condemnation.

I freely acknowledge that the verses that you provided teach a choice is being made. However, the faithful have been reborn before they make that choice. As I wrote in the thread, believers are that way because of the work that God has done for them, and is doing in them. Just as we have no part in our natural birth, so we have no part in our spiritual rebirth. Spiritual life comes from God, not from within our unsaved, spiritual dead, minds. Continuing in context, John 1:

12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is pretty clear that we cannot cause our own birth. We are not "born" Christian, nor can we be forced to believe by others. And we certainly don't do it because we "want to" while in a state of sin. God gives us the Spirit, and we are born "from above." It is a process, just like in physical life. God forms us over time, bringing us into His family at just the right time. At that point, as we take that first breath, we are "born." Jesus' words to Nicodemus lay it out for us.

It is plain that you picked good verses about chosing. But you left out a whole lot of verses that say that this is God working in us to make us who we are. For those who end up rejecting Him, they go the "way of the world." They are not "sent to hell." If God had not changed us, we would end up with the rest. If you like, I can continue on in another post.