Talk:First Book of Samuel

Merged Samuel Books Draft
The Book(s) of Samuel (known in modern canon as First and Second Samuel) is the third book of the Nevi'im ("prophets") in the Old Testament (Hebrew: Tanakh). Samuel is a historical account of the introduction of kings in Israel's history, with a specific emphasis on the reign of David. Beginning with the birth of Samuel and ending with some of David's final acts, Samuel documents the transition between a solely theocratic rule via Judges to a nation ruled by a monarch. The start of the book traces Samuel's important acts to a summary of the reign of Saul, before describing David's reign in-depth. In modern canon, the book is divided into two separate volumes (1 and 2 Samuel) to ease reference.

SouthWriter
The devisions of the Hebrew Scriptures don't exactly match those of the Old Testament as we know it. The Nevi'im is literally the "prophets" from the word for "prophet". The Old Testament that we use has four divisions: Pentateuch, History, Poetry and Prophets, with the order following that order. In the Tanakh, there are three divisions: The Torah (Law), the Nevi'im (Prophets) and the Ketuvim (Writings).

The Prophets include the works about "prophets" (men and women used by God) -- Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings -- and those "by" prophets -- Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the Twelve (minor prophets). The latter group does not include Daniel, which is included in the Writings (in order of the accepted canon: Ruth, 1&2 Chronicles, Ezra-Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalm, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Canticles and Daniel). The order in most collections of Hebrew Scriptures ends with the Chronicles.

The flow of the two books of Samuel, named for Samuel who is absent from 2 Samuel, divides at the end of the life of the first king, Saul, and continues with the beginning of the reign of the second king, David. Samuel has died, David still must face Saul's surviving son to become accepted as king by all the people. The literary unit is not the same from 1 Samuel 31:12 to 2 Samuel 1:1. The division is similar to that between Deuteronomy 34:12 and Joshua 1:1. One leader is dead, the next is coming forward to lead in his place. Both Joshua and David were prominent in the books previous to those that preceeded them.

It is not without reason that the Christian Bible from the earliest times divided the books of Samuel. If reference Bibles provide separate introductions to the books, then it is proper that the Wiki should as well.

SouthWriter (talk) 00:04, April 12, 2019 (UTC)

Christian Sirolli
Since this wiki is about the modern Bible, and not about it's original version, we ought to use the Christian divisions. Our audience is not Orthodox Jewish people, but rather it is Christians who are used to the modern divisions. So I think we ought to use the modern divisions. Each book has enough content on their own to have their own full articles. The same arguments in support and in opposition to this merge can also be made of 1 and 2 Kings and Chronicles. But I would recommend we don't merge.

11:26, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

Re:SouthWriter
I understand what you are saying, but how can it be said that 1 Sam 31:12 does not directly connect to 2 Sam 1:1? It discusses the death of Saul, which is directly at the end of 1 Sam. It mentions David was "still at Zilkag", something that would have to been gleaned from 1 Samuel.

I get your point on the leadership transistion that occurs from Deuteronomy to Joshua and Joshua to Judges. There seems to be more of a distinction between the books and they were seperate in the first place. It seems reading the end of 1 Samuel to 2nd Samuel provides no interruption whatsoever in the flow. You could say the same about Deuteronomy, Joshua and Judges; but I think its more of a dependency issue. It could be assumed you knew the leader had died (if you had any knowledge of Israelite history). Its the specific literary attributes of 2 Sam 1 that leads me to see it as one unit with 1 Sam 31.

The Christian canon divided Samuel, but in the original Hebrew writing it was one book. My main goal is trying to go with what seems like original intent, unless I am wrong. There does seem to be a shift in 2 Samuel, though it mainly seems to happen after David and Bathsheba. The narrative completely changes after chapter 11 and 12 when David recieves judgement for his affair; it feels the same from 1 Sam up until that point.

Also- both of my study bibles have joint introductions in the books and treat them as one book in the study notes

In Christ, Superdadsuper, Sr. Content and Community Manager (Bible Wiki) 22:09, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

Re: Christian Sirolli
The key issue here I am trying to advocate is that we shouldn't think of them as two books. Its not about accomodating Jewish orthodoxy is trying to match the original intent. My goal is by having merged when appropiate we can help change the way people approach the books, since it really isn't right to approach them as two seperate books.

It is somewhat frustrating for me to have people opposing this, when it is so evident that they meant to be one book and were divided for easier reference. Having two articles because a "book is long enough" is not a good argument. This could be applied to Isaiah (which liberal scholars divide up into multiple books on the basis that Isaiah did not write the entire book), Jeremiah, Psalms or any book that is vIt seems most study bibles recongize them as one. Even Wikipedia (who is not who we model off), recongizes them as one book, rightfully. I am trying to change the way people think, but I fully recongize we have to make it abundantly clear that when we talk about the Books of Samuel, we mean 1 and 2 Samuel.

Unfortunately, there isn't much of a community here to ever move forward with stuff. I imagine this is another "shot down" proposal that will sit dormant for years that will only be able to have a real democratic discussion if we ever have the resources to go "full time".